Q and A: Rotational Core Training.

Posted on Feb 17th, 2010 by Tony Gentilcore

Q: Hello- I had a question regarding your post on the slideboard bodysaw exercise.  You mentioned one of the jobs of the abs is to resist rotation, if i understood that correctly.  Does that mean there is a contraindication of exercises which involve rotation such as the rotary torso machine or any exercise which involves twisting?

A: This is actually a great question, and I hope I can answer it without opening up a can of worms.  First, do I believe there’s a contraindication of exercises that involve rotation?  Absolutely not.  Do I believe there’s a contraindication of exercises that involve rotation using one of those rotary torso machines (as pictured above)? Well, does Octomom have the parenting skills of a shark’s mouth?

To be honest, I’m not a huge fan of those rotary torso machines.  If you look at the biomechanics of the lumbar spine, it’s not designed for a whole lot of rotation as it is.  Roughly 13 degrees TOTAL from L1-L5.  Contrarily, when you look at total motion of the thoracic spine (T1-T12), you’re looking at roughly 40 degrees of rotation, give or take a couple of degrees.

So, in essence, it’s not so much I have anything against rotational training.  Rather, I have issues when trainees start training rotation from the wrong places!  Shirley Sahrmann, Gray Cook, and most recently, Mike Boyle have all played integral roles in bringing the whole concept of joint specific training into fruition.

NOTE: click HERE for a great article written by Boyle on the topic.

Needless to say, with regards to core training and the lumbar spine, we need to train it with stability in mind.  Which is why I’m a huge fan of the aforementioned slideboard bodysaw and:

Pallof Presses:

Prone Plate Switches:

Split Stance Cable Lifts/Chops (anti-rotary training):

As well as a plethora of anterior core work:

Conversely, when talking about core training and the thoracic spine, we need to train with mobility in mind.   This is where we’ll use rotational chops/lifts/etc, sledgehammer work, as well as rotational med ball variations

Again, it’s not that I am against rotational training.  I’m certainly not.  I just think most trainees are asking for trouble once they start adding in a bunch of rotation/twisting movements in the wrong places!

More to the point, when I start working with a new athlete/client, they need to prove they can resist rotation before I actually train it.  Even then, it’s imperative you teach someone to rotate through the chest, and not the lumbar spine.  Put another way, it’s about coaching someone to rotate through the appropriate segments (thoracic spine) and not the wrong ones (lumbar spine).

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Comments ( 8 )

Good post Tony. In regards to rotary training, I think it’s also good to point out that there is a difference between lumbar rotation and hip internal rotation. I use a traditional resisted standing torso rotation (pulley set at chest height)both personally and with my clients, but the emphasis is on the hips, chest and head moving as one unit. The inside heel and knee lifts and pivots and the hip internally rotates during the movement: this is in stark contrast to the manner in which most people perform this exercise where they just keep both feet flat on the ground and their hips stay still (spine wrecker in my opinion).

I also actually use this exercise as an assessment tool to look for hip internal rotation deficits: if the foot on the outside plant leg starts to flare out, it tells me the individual is lacking.

On a side note, back before I had any idea what I was doing (but boy I thought I did), my training partner and I used to perform negative only-using the entire weight stack-seated torso rotations on a medx machine. How I didn’t blow out a disc is beyond me: our hips were completely fixed and it was all through the lumbar. We’d do like 2 sets of 6 (8 second eccentric reps). To be young and dumb! :)

PJ Striet

P. J. Striet added these pithy words on Feb 17th, 2010 at 3:52 pm |

Tony,

This is very timely as I have a buddy who’s looking for tips on improving his swing for softball. His current workout includes rotational training which I was a bit inclined to urge against in favor for Pallof Presses and the like. Your last paragraph addresses this. I need to point him in the direction of some thoracic mobility stuff although I’m not sure about how to get him the right training for the mechanics of the swing. I’m in a different city.

Mosley added these pithy words on Feb 17th, 2010 at 4:23 pm |

Tony,

When it comes to rotational training with an emphasis on the T-Spine, do you tend to favor lifts versus chops, or would that skewing mostly apply to someone with a tendency towards some degree of excessive kyphosis? In an ideal world, a balance of both would probably be best, but I am just curious if you notice any patterns in terms of how often you find yourself programming one versus the other.

Dave Chipit added these pithy words on Feb 17th, 2010 at 7:17 pm |

PJ,

VERY solid point! Nick Tumminello had a post on that exact same thing last week, I believe. Why can’t I ever remember to mention these things when I write a half-way decent post??? You’re always making me look bad….;O) Thanks for reminding me (and my other readers)

Dave,

To be honest, I’m MUCH more a fan of the rotary (anti-rotation) variations than I am the actual rotational ones. I tend to program both chops and lifts equally, however. No real set preference towards either one. As well, I’ll generally start people in the half kneeling position, and then progress them to “tall” kneeling (both knees).

In terms of the rotational specific variations, again, I don’t have any set preference towards a chop or lift. I will say, though, that I do tend to program lift variations before chops. Not really sure why, I just do. How’s that for a scientific answer?!?!

Tony Gentilcore added these pithy words on Feb 17th, 2010 at 9:30 pm |

Check out the Tracy Anderson treadmill wannabe, great comedy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP6ZswxBLfY&feature=player_embedded

Bob P added these pithy words on Feb 18th, 2010 at 11:19 am |

Tony,

What sort of load do you guys use on the Pallof Press?

Callum added these pithy words on Feb 19th, 2010 at 2:22 am |

@ Callum,

You don’t need to be too aggressive with the loading, actually. Typically, I’d say with start most people in the 20-40 lb range, depending on their fitness level. Progressions include:

Increasing the load, obviously
Narrowing your stance
Split stance and tall kneeling variations

Tony Gentilcore added these pithy words on Feb 19th, 2010 at 9:16 am |

very good post: it will avoid some people to injure themselves

dd099 added these pithy words on Mar 6th, 2010 at 6:43 pm |

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